This is the second part (minute 30:21 – 1:04:39) of the interview Kara Swisher held with Elon Musk during CodeCon 2021 on September 28. She and guests from the audience wanted to know from Elon Musk, among other things, what he thinks about various accusations and allegations, how and why he tweets, whether he remains critical of AI development, how trust in FSD will evolve, and whether he sees problems with power distribution if the EV fleet continues to grow rapidly. To access the YouTube video, German translation, and first part of the interview, click on the links.
Kara Swisher: (30:21) So when you get a lot of criticism, say about Starlink’s Space pollution – you see a lot of stories about Space pollution – why is Elon putting some of these astronomers get mad at you? Or with the rockets. So, you have these big defense contracts that you’re doing, correct? The first time someone’s broken into the area. How do you meet those criticisms? Is this just small potatoes?
Elon Musk: Well, first of all, with respect to the astronomers, we are in constant dialogue with the leading astronomers of the world and taking great pains to ensure that our satellites do not interfere with their telescopes. I believe at this point, they are satisfied that they will not. We take great pains to ensure that the satellites do not reflect or otherwise interfere with the telescopes, including the most sensitive telescopes. There may be a few sort of amateur astronomers who aren’t happy. But the professional ones are satisfied that we’re taking reasonable steps to ensure that we are not standing in the way of science, nor would we ever want to.
And we’re also looking at launching some new telescopes using Starship. Because Starship’s much bigger vehicle, we can launch satellites that have 10 times the resolution of the Hubble, which would be great for science. And, in fact, there’s an exciting program, working with Saul Perlmutter at Berkeley, on a big new Space telescope. And I think we’ll do more of those. I think at the end of the day, Starship and SpaceX are gonna do a lot to advance our understanding of astrophysics and astronomy.
Kara Swisher: (32:17) You said to me last couple times ago when we talked, you want to die on Mars. You still want to die on Mars? Just not on landing, right?
Elon Musk: Yes, just not on impact.
Kara Swisher: Well, that would be spectacular.
Elon Musk: Yes, but you wouldn’t get to enjoy it much, you know, just a second or so.
Kara Swisher: Talking about a narrative for the rest.
Elon Musk: I was just asked, “Do you want to die on Mars?” And I was like, “Well, I suppose if you’re going to pick Earth or Mars, I’m like, it’d be cool to like be born on Earth and die on Mars.” I’m not like trying to make a beeline to Mars and just, you know, die or something. It’s just that if I got to pick one, you’re gonna die somewhere. Sure. On Mars.
Kara Swisher: I’ve interviewed a lot of …. uh, I guess they’re biologists, they’re worried about essentially… they said you have to be under the earth, a couple 100 feet?
Elon Musk: No, no, no. Definitely not a couple hundred. You know, first of all, half the time, you’re shielded by Mars itself. Half the radiation is just the planet shielding you. And then you want maybe have like, I don’t know, three feet of dirt ish on the roof or just a kind of a thick roof. They’ll be fine.
Kara Swisher: (33:40) So you’re not worried about becoming shorter and stupider by moving to Mars?
Elon Musk: No, I think we might become taller, actually, on Mars. A little bit taller because the gravity is roughly 40% of ours.
Kara Swisher: Okay, that would be good for me. When you think about…
Elon Musk: I do think that’s like an important thing for… If you think of the various great filters – few people are familiar with the sort of great filter I thought – one of the filters is ‘Do we become a multi-planet species or not?’ So that is at least one of the great filters, and it would be great to pass that and be a multi-planet species where the critical threshold is on for a Mars city. If the resupply ships from Earth stop coming for any reason, whether that is civilization on Earth, it could be a mundane reason or could be World War III – but does Mars prosper or die out?
And if Mars is missing anything at all, like the civilizational equivalent of vitamin C, then it will eventually die out. So you need to get to the point where a Mars city is self-sustaining, even if the ships from Earth stop coming. Then you have passed the great filter or at least passed particularly that great filter. I think we should endeavor to pass that great filter as soon as possible.
Kara Swisher: When? You said ‘pretty soon’ last time we talked.
Elon Musk: Yeah, I mean, I think we should really try hard to make it happen in this century; before the end of the century.
Kara Swisher: (35:19) You’ll be pretty old.
Elon Musk: Um, probably dead.
Kara Swisher: Yeah, but not on Mars.
Elon Musk: Well, I mean, I’ll pop over there when I’m older or something.
Kara Swisher: Okay. So, um, one of the things you’re doing is a lot of government deals. You’re doing this lunar lander, you did the rocket one. You’re getting billions from… $2.9 billion, is that right?
Elon Musk: Well, right now, we’re not getting anything because we’re being sued.
Kara Swisher: Right, that’s right. Sorry. Okay. Yeah. But getting a lot of money.
Elon Musk: Hopefully, we’ll get it.
Kara Swisher: Right, right, when it’s over.
Elon Musk: Yeah. I mean, most of our launches are commercial, to be clear.
Kara Swisher: Yes, I understand that. You’re doing a lot of government work. What is that like working with the government. Is this important to your business?
Elon Musk: Yeah. I mean, it’s an important part of business. Bear in mind, if you’re in any industry, like, let’s say you’re a pencil manufacturer, okay. About 40% of your pencils are going to go to the government. The government’s about 40% of the economy. You know, if you’re a shoe manufacturer, you bet 40% of your business is going to be with the government. So, you know, it’s to be expected that most companies are gonna have a percentage of business with the government, state, federal and local, that is proportionate to the GDP of the government.
Kara Swisher: (36:38) So one of the criticisms of you is you don’t pay enough taxes if any. Can you address that? Because here you are getting money from the government, you obviously want a functioning government to be able to build all kinds of things and services. How do you look at that trade-off?
Elon Musk: Well, I mean, there was a bunch of very misleading stuff that was published by ProPublica. And really, that was some sort of trickery, and really they did themselves no good service by doing that. So first of all, with respect to the government contracts that SpaceX wins – our aspiration is to do the most for the least. And if you look at all the contracts we’ve won, we’ve won them because we have the best price… we have a better service at a lower price. They weren’t just handed to us.
Kara Swisher: I don’t think they were. That’s not what I’m saying. In fact, you called me and said, “We finally got in after years of sort of this back slappy.” I was, “It’s a great thing. That is great.”
Elon Musk: Absolutely. I mean, for the Moon lander – just taking that as one example – our bid was half the price of the Blue Origin Lockheed bid. For a vehicle that does basically 10 times more or eight times more perhaps, our price was half. And NASA has a mandate to get back to the Moon, so we save taxpayers like $3 billion relative to that contract. I think that’s a good thing. With respect to my personal taxes: I don’t actually draw a salary or anything. My cash compensation is basically zero.
Kara Swisher: (38:24) Which is a good thing because income is a problem for most people because they pay taxes on income. That was the whole point of the story, I think.
Elon Musk: Yeah, so I do have stock options that vest (…) basically with Tesla and SpaceX. I just have not really bothered to sort of take money off the table, which is not common. Most people do. They sell some of their stock, and they take money off the table. And for me, I just like said, you know, my money was the first in and it’ll be the last out. The success of SpaceX and Tesla is far from assured, and there were many times when it looked like the companies would… and they did. They skirted bankruptcy many times, but I never tried to take money off the table. And now this has been trying to be turned around and made into a bad thing. This is messed up.
But just before my stock options expire, then I am forced to exercise, and my top marginal tax rate is 53%. So I don’t think that’s particularly low, and it’s gonna go up next year. It’s like 57% or something.
Kara Swisher: When you sell.
Elon Musk: Yes, and I have a bunch of options that are expiring early next year. A huge block of options will sell in Q4 because I have to; they’ll expire. And my top marginal tax rate is 53%.
Kara Swisher: So you will eventually pay a lot of taxes.
Elon Musk: Massive, yeah, I mean, basically majority of what I sell will be tax.
Kara Swisher: (40:06) I don’t think it was alleging illegality, it’s that wealthy people got to borrow against their stock.
Elon Musk: Yes, they were; they were saying that like somehow borrowing is a trick to get away from paying taxes. But it’s important to bear in mind that we’ve had a very long expansion in the economy, maybe the longest ever, and borrowing against stock is all sorts of funny games until you have a recession, and you get the margin calls, and then you go to zero, which happens basically every time there’s a recession. Stocks don’t always go up; they go down.
Kara Swisher: Yours seems to.
Elon Musk: Most stocks have gone up, including some questionable stocks, frankly.
Kara Swisher: Are you talking about yourself? I’m sorry. Are you surprised by how much it’s gone up?
Elon Musk: I mean, I have literally gone on record and said, I think our stock price is too high, in my opinion – and this did nothing to stop the rise in the stock price. So what am I supposed to do, you know, I’m not the one making it to go up. But I think it’s important to (…) my actual tax rate is 53%. They’re trying to make it sound like, basically, there was a big increase in the value of the Tesla stock, and then they added up… – They’re just very selectively poked at the numbers to make it sound like I was paying very low taxes. But in fact, my taxes are very high. They’re like, over half.
Kara Swisher: And you pay them.
Elon Musk: Yes, and a huge amount will be paid in the next three months because of expiring options. And there was like one year where I think my taxes were basically zero. And the reason for that was because I overpaid taxes the year before. They forgot to mention that.
Kara Swisher: (41:56) Call them back.
Elon Musk: Why calling back? They have no interest in the truth.
Kara Swisher: Oh, okay. All right. Let me ask you a question. Twitter, let’s finish Twitter, and then let’s get to questions from the audience. What’s going on with you on Twitter? I am a Twitter addict. I say the wrong things all the time. Someone explained it to me who’s very close to you, saying it’s your release valve. Is this where you feel better?
Elon Musk: Yeah, I think I said some people use their hair to express themselves. I use Twitter.
Kara Swisher: Do you regret any of it or not? You are kind of prominent.
Elon Musk: I mean, sure.
Kara Swisher: Walk us through when you decide to do a tweet. Do you go ‘no, no, no – yes’?
Elon Musk: I think about it for hours. And I consult with my strategy team.
Kara Swisher: You just literally go, “Yeah.”
Elon Musk: Yeah. Or maybe I’m wasted, and I’m (‘swoosh’…) gone. Let me shoot myself in the foot. Bam. Now let me shoot myself a little. Bam. That describes some of my tweets.
Kara Swisher: Yeah. Aren’t you worried about any SEC involvement in your tweets going forward?
Elon Musk: What does that stand for again? I mean, I know the middle word is ‘Elon’s’. But can’t remember the other two words.
Kara Swisher: You need to answer me. Are you worried they’re gonna say, “Elon, stop fucking tweeting”?
Elon Musk: You talk about the Shortseller Enrichment Commission? Yeah. That’s their new name.
Kara Swisher: (43:37) (…) a recent tweet you did. You did one great tweet about time, saying ‘time is the currency’, which I thought was beautiful.
Elon Musk: Time is the ultimate currency, yes. No matter what resources you have, you can’t wind back the clock.
Kara Swisher: It’s true, no matter how rich you are. But then you did the Biden tweet. Can you explain that one?
Elon Musk: Well, you know, like Biden held this EV summit, didn’t invite Tesla, invited GM, Ford, Chrysler, and UAW, an EV summit in the White House, didn’t mention Tesla once and praised GM and Ford for leading the EV revolution.
Kara Swisher: So you were pissed.
Elon Musk: Does this sound maybe a little biased or something? You know, just, it’s not the friendliest administration. Seems to be controlled by the unions as well (…).
Kara Swisher: So you (…) Trump back?
Elon Musk: Uh, no.
Kara Swisher: Who would you like to be President besides yourself?
Elon Musk: I would not want to be President at all. Sounds like no fun being President.
Kara Swisher: What do you think is gonna bring our country together, if at all? Moving to Mars?
Elon Musk: Well, I think if there was some moderate, you know, sort of centrist President, then I think that would help. I think most people want a president who is just a very competent, you know, executive, not too far left, not too far right. I think most people would prefer that. You know, when it comes down to the election, you’ve got two choices, and you’re like, maybe you don’t love either choice, but you got to pick one.
Kara Swisher: Will that happen?
Elon Musk: Do I think that will be what?
Kara Swisher: Centrist.
Elon Musk: I hope so.
Kara Swisher: Are you worried about democracy?
Elon Musk: I’m not super worried about democracy. Are you worried about democracy? What concerns you?
Kara Swisher: (46:26) A lot of the dialogue is getting a little… I studied propaganda. It’s worrisome – the fact that it can happen here, it certainly can. I’m a Philip Roth kind of person. So yeah. But we’re both having a lot of children, so we must believe in the future. Yes, we have 10 children between us, correct?
Elon Musk: I believe yes.
Kara Swisher: You’re slightly ahead, but you’ve got a rocket. Anyway…
Elon Musk: I think a lot of people think that there’s too many people on the planet, but I think there’s, in fact, too few. And that possibly the single greatest risk to human civilization is the rapidly diminishing birth rate. And the facts are out there for anyone to look at. But a lot of people are still stuck with, you know, Paul Ehrlich’s book ‘Population Bomb’, and it’s like, that was a long time ago. That is not the case today. And there was a massive notch in demographics last year because the birth rate plummeted, and also this year.
Kara Swisher: So more children?
Elon Musk: So I mean, you know, no babies, no humanity. They got to come from somewhere.
Kara Swisher: (47:44) Okay. We’re going to have questions from the audience because there’s a lot of great questions.
Ronan Levy: Hey Elon. I’m Ronan Levy from ‘field trip’. We spent a lot of time talking about outer Space, and I want to ask you about inner Space. And the question specifically is, do you spend time thinking about humanity’s somewhat destructive tendencies before sending people to Mars? And, specifically, you’ve talked about the subject of DMT, and curious to know what role you think psychedelics may have in addressing some of the more destructive tendencies of humanity.
Kara Swisher: We’re going to talk about this tomorrow.
Elon: Okay. Um, I think generally, people should be open to psychedelics. Yeah. A lot of people making laws are kind of from a different era. So I think as the new generation gets into political power, we will see greater receptivity to the benefits of psychedelics.
Ronan Levy: Are humanity’s tendencies right now concerning, like, above, before we go to Mars?
Elon Musk: I mean, humanity’s tendencies… I mean, we are at a very peaceful moment in history. So you gotta separate the sort of news headlines from the reality. I think like Steven Pinker at Harvard has really pointed this out, like, we’re actually at the lowest violence per capita in human history. It may not seem like that, but objectively those are the statistics.
It’s not to say there’s no violence or there aren’t things to be improved, but it’s actually quite good. Big picture-wise, I think we want to take the set of actions that maximize the probability that the future is good and that civilization continues, and that the sort of small candle of consciousness in the void that is humanity continues and that the candle does not go out.
Kara Swisher: (50:06) Okay, next, over here.
Lena: Hello, my name is Lena, I’m a student at the University of Chicago, and I also have a podcast called “Kinda Sorta Brown”. So my question centers a little bit what you talked about, concerning that, you know, you’re building this world for not enough people yet, but the people that now are here. But concerning young people, how do you actually build infrastructure to make sure that you’re not just building resources for people to be on Mars but actually putting them in positions of power politically?
Or educating people who don’t have access to learn about Space technology, etc.? How do you actually teach young people and bring them in, and do you feel like that’s your role? Or it’s your role to just build the spaceship to Mars?
Elon Musk: Well, our primary goal is to create the technology necessary to get people to Mars, in the absence of which,… you know, it’s somewhat academic. So we wouldn’t want to get too distracted from our primary mission of we got to make it at least possible to go to Mars. And we want to do so as soon as possible and make access to Mars as widely available as possible, as affordable as possible so that if somebody wants to go, they can. So, that’s our primary mission.
I mean, there are many good causes in the world, but we got to be careful that we do not try to take on too many. I mean, there are many noble missions, but we have to pick our battles and say, “Okay, let’s just make sure we get this done,” because nobody else is doing it. I mean, if SpaceX doesn’t do it, I’m not sure how it will happen. I think, at the least right now, SpaceX is the only hope. So we are going to get this done. And it’s far from done. I mean, we’ve got a long way to go.
Starlink, in terms of providing internet connectivity to people that really don’t have it or it’s very expensive, I think will be helpful in empowering a lot of people who are disempowered today. I think that’s a good thing, too.
Kara Swisher: Alright, next.
NN: Hi Technoking. How do you respond to allegations…?
Kara Swisher: You call him ‘technoking’?
Elon Musk: That is my formal title.
NN: I’ve got to be respectful, Kara. How do you respond to allegations that you’re a living cybernetic organism stem from the future to save us? And secondly, …
Elon Musk: I can neither confirm nor deny that.
NN: He’s good. He’s good. And secondly, what do you think the probability is the general-purpose blockchains that have great utility will eclipse the value of like a finished product in Bitcoin?
Elon Musk: (53:13) Actually, I’m not sure how to answer the last one. I think just generally, public ledger stuff is good because I’m a fan of open source and just, you know, sunlight being a great disinfectant, and the less things occur in the dark, the better. And, you know, basically, blockchains are just,… it’s a cryptographic ledger, an open code. There’s probably a lot of good things that could be done with that.
Kara Swisher: The first question?
Elon Musk: I said I can neither confirm nor deny.
Kara Swisher: Ah, okay. Right here.
Alex Heath: Hi Elon, Alex Heath with ‘The Verge’. The question’s on the self-driving data. You guys are rolling out. Curious why you’re encouraging people to not share videos, making them sign NDAs, just because…
Elon Musk: There’s a lot of videos being shared.
Alex Heath: But the NDAs for the full self-driving data.
Elon Musk: I don’t know. People don’t seem to listen to me. Not sure there’s… I don’t know why there’s an NDA, we probably don’t need it. People just are ignoring it anyway so I’m not sure it matters.
Kara Swisher: Alright, so I’m gonna ignore this. I’m gonna keep getting questions. Let’s do two.
Zia Yusuf: (54:40) Hi Elon, Zia Yusuf from BCG. Could you talk a little bit about AI and robotics? You’ve expressed concerns in the past but now building some as well. What do you see as the issues that we do have to solve on that front?
Elon Musk: Well, I’ve said for a long time, I think AI safety is a really big deal. And we should have some regulatory agency that is overseeing AI safety. But there is not yet currently any such thing, and just generally, any kind of regulatory agency run by the government usually takes years to put in place. So, you know, after the population collapse issue, I think AI safety is probably the second biggest threat to the future of civilization. And yeah, like I said, I’m not quite sure what to do with it.
Tesla is arguably the world’s biggest robot maker because like we have basically semi-autonomous cars that will ultimately be fully autonomous. And we are building a humanoid robot that will be basically like the car but with legs. I kind of held off on doing that for a while because, you know, I certainly don’t want to hasten the AI apocalypse. But clearly, if you look at Boston Dynamics, these humanoid robots are gonna happen. So they’re gonna happen with or without Tesla. So it’s like, Tesla’s got a little bit more, I mean, a lot more ability to ensure robotics safety and AI. And I will try my best to do that.
Zia Yusuf: What would you do…
Kara Swisher: No, you can’t do more, sorry. We get another quick.
NN: (56:40) First of all, thanks for making the first car I ever loved. My wife insisted I asked this question I got here. We also have way too many children.
Elon Musk: Well, that’s probably great.
NN: If there’s any chance that you could put a roof rack on the X, that’s what she’s looking for. We need a roof rack on the X. If you can figure that out. That’s almost more important than going to Mars. We have not figured that out.
Elon Musk: I mean, it’s tricky because we have the fancy doors.
NN: They’re awesome.
Elon Musk: Yeah, the doors are awesome. But you know if you have a roof rack and like how do you stop the doors from smashing?
Kara Swisher: You’re smart.
Elon Musk: The model Y has a roof rack, though.
NN: It’s not big enough for all the kids.
Elon Musk: Really? It seats seven.
N.N.: Not normal kids.
Elon Musk: Okay.
Kara Swisher: (57:26) Do you have separate cars for your children?
Elon Musk: It does have a tow hitch. You can tow your stuff.
Kara Swisher: The last two questions.
NN: Elon, thanks for the Plaid. It’s a great car. As we’re all, you know, waiting for full self…
Elon Musk: That’s awesome, really, it’s awesome.
NN: We might have to argue about the yoke, but we’re getting accustomed to it. It’s a great car.
Elon Musk: It’s like something different, and it’s different. And people sometimes don’t like the different thing. But it’s pretty damn cool. I think it’s great. …blame me for being odd. It’s my fault.
NN: How much did your kids push you on the yoke? Was it your kids? Because my kids just love the yoke. So, that’s works for them. Anyway, really, really quick: Look, we’re living in this in-between time between we drive our cars, ourselves, and the cars drive themselves. They’re semi-autonomous. For those of us in the industry, those of us who understand something about technology, about machine learning, I actually like it; it’s pretty easy. It fixes my mistakes. I fix its mistakes.
A lot in the press, though, about it, and Google’s position certainly is, this is like the worst place to be. Right? Because people are going to get checked out in the cars, are going to drive themselves into… What do you think about the ML (machine learning) human hybrids that we’re kind of, you know, embracing right now? How long are we going to have these crossover periods? I know you believe FSD is around the corner. Do you think this is really a problem, or we’re going to teach people to deal with ML?
Elon Musk: (58:44) Well, I mean, the transition period to new technology is always a little bumpy. But I think we published the safety stats, like basically miles driven on autopilot and miles driven manually. And this, I mean, it’s an order of magnitude different. So like, people would say, “Oh well, you’re playing with the statistics,” I’m like, “Listen, we’re just saying, miles driven autopilot, miles not driven autopilot,” and there’s a factor 10 difference. So I mean, even if we were like… we’re not fiddling with the statistics. This is not subtle. That is what I’m saying. It’s not subtle.
The truth is that people are actually not great at driving these two-ton death machines, you know. And people get tired, and they get drunk, and they get distracted, and they text, and they do all sorts of things they shouldn’t do. And then the cars crash, basically. When we’re embarking on the autonomy front, someone told me, I think that’s quite true, which is, even if you, for argument’s sake, reduce fatalities by 90% with autonomy, the 10% that do die with autonomy are still going to sue you. The 90% that are living don’t even know that that’s the reason they’re alive.
Nonetheless, I’ve had many conversations with the Tesla autopilot full self-driving team, who are just an outstanding group of people. And saying, like, listen, guys, it is better to pursue… – Like, the reality of doing the right thing matters more than the perception of doing the right thing. As long as we are confident that we’re doing the right thing, even if we are criticized and sued and all that, we should nonetheless do the right thing and not care about simply the perception of the right thing.
Kara Swisher: (1:00:56) Okay, last question.
Rick Cutter: Rick Cutter, the ‘Cloud for Utilities’. Thank you so much for the hard work you’ve done with Tesla driving the EV market. As we move towards more green energy utilities, are getting rid of their fossil plants, coal plants, investing in renewables, there’s a difference in economic output they can deliver. Are you concerned at all as the growth of EVs continues? Do you think we could have a supply chain problem with energy down the road?
Elon Musk: Yeah, I think that’s a very good question. The full answer is lengthy. I’ll try to give you the short version. The electricity demand, roughly… if we shift our transport to electric, then electricity demand approximately doubles, maybe a little more than doubles. And this is going to create a lot of challenges with the grid, especially for distribution to neighborhoods.
And this is why Tesla has the product, the solar roof and solar retrofit – is because even if you increase sustainable power generation at the utility level, you’re still gonna have a distribution problem where you need new high-power lines, new medium-power lines, you need to dramatically increase the size of the substations, which means you’re gonna have to start locking down houses to increase the substation size. This is really unworkable unless you have significant local power generation at houses. And this is why I think it’s actually very important that a necessary part of the solution is local power generation, on roofs, on the houses of homes – very important.
And then, of course, we need large, sustainable power generation developments, primarily wind and solar. But it needs to be paired with battery packs for steady-state so it can provide continuous power. And a lot of good things are happening in this regard. The growth of solar in the last several years has been incredible. I think it’s like a 40% compound annual growth rate in solar, and also a big growth in wind.
I’m also kind of pro-nuclear, and I’m sort of surprised by a lot of the public sentiment against nuclear. I’m not saying we should go build a whole bunch of new nuclear plants, but I don’t think we should shut down ones that are operating safely. They did this in Germany, for example, and then had to create a whole bunch of coal power plants. And I don’t think that was the right decision, frankly. Yeah, anyway, so one or another, though, we’re going to have to have a lot more electricity generation. And this is primarily going to come down to solar and wind paired with batteries.
Kara Swisher: Which will be our next conversation.
Elon Musk: Okay.
Kara Swisher: Tesla, Boring, solar.
Elon Musk: Sounds good.
Kara Swisher: Okay. Can I ask one more question? One time we talked a couple years ago at Code. You said we’re in a simulation. This past couple of years has seemed truly fucked up. Feels like a bunch of teenagers from the future are just really smoking a lot of dope and fucking with us. Are we in a simulation?
Elon Musk: I mean, my heart says no, and my brain says yes.
Kara Swisher: Elon Musk. (1:04:39)